Fees and Services: From Traditional AUM to Flat Fees, Part II with Dan Haylett [Ep61]

Welcome to episode 61 of The Innovating Advice Show. 

I’m joined once again by Dan Haylett, a Life Centered Financial Planner at TFP Financial Planning in the UK. Dan was first on episode 52 where we took a deep dive into how TFP has structured their fees and service offerings, moving from traditional percentage charges to flat fees.

In this episode, Dan shares how they took clients on the journey to the new fee and service models, including the conversations with clients where fees both went up and went down and advice for those looking to make a similar transition in their business.

Dan also gives us a full look into the financial coaching program he’s just launched to provide accessible and affordable coaching to all. And in true, transparent Dan style, he walks us through exactly what it looks like, timelines and cost, providing a great model for other advisers to adopt.

Finally, we chat about the ridiculous concept of retirement in its current form and why we need to change the conversations with clients around retirement.


Considering shifting your fee and service models?

As Dan notes, TFP made the change in part to become future-proof against changing regulations and the increasing commoditization of asset management.

As you look to future-proof your business across technology, fee and service models and attracting nextgen clients and advisers, Kate can help.




Guest Bio

Dan joined TFP Financial Planning Ltd in September 2018. He has worked in financial services since 2005, specifically in investment management, where he has held senior sales and management positions in the City with some of the largest global asset management companies.

Dan has been happily married to Diane since 2009. They have two daughters: Gracie, who was born in 2008, and Olivia, who was born in 2011.

Dan is sports mad, with a particular love for cricket; he has played to county 2nd XI standard and has spent a year in Australia as an overseas professional. Dan also loves golf and plays to a 6-handicap.


00:30 - Introducing Dan Haylett

02:48 - Transitioning clients to a flat fee model

06:35 - Transitioning away from percentage charges

09:26 - Trying the model with new clients first

10:48 - Taking the profession forward

12:20 - Refining the process

15:47 - Helping the traditionally underserved with a financial coaching program

22:27 - What the coaching program looks like

28:50 - How junior planners can benefit from this approach

30:09 - The timeline for the program

33:50 - The problem with the word “retirement”

41:03 - Making clients the star of the show


Kate: Hi, Dan, welcome back to the show.

Dan: Thank you very much. Delighted to be back.

Kate: So for those of you that missed Dan's episode, he was on about a month or so ago on episode 52, where we talked a whole lot about the hot topic of fees. He shared the flat fee structure that they're using at TFP, talked about transparency in listing everything online, along with examples. And we had such a great conversation around all of that. There were a few things we didn't get to. So I wanted to bring Dan back on the show to make sure we covered all those important topics. And one of them is around how you transitioned clients to this new fee model, because that's something people are struggling with in this desire to shift fees. But then it's the question of how do you bring clients along that journey?

Dan: Yeah. It's probably the greatest question out of all of this and there's no magical answer. I think there's a realization that it's one of those things that you, you have to do. It's not an en masse thing. It's a on review or in a one-to-one environment with a client. So we've transitioned very much on that. It's not 'we're moving from A to B', we explained to the client exactly why we're doing it. Explain to them the evolution of our business model, and the evolution of financial planning and advice generally. For a number of our clients, it's a savings in fees. So, we have that conversation and the ones that we've transitioned across, the most common kickback would be, "have I been paying too much?" But they've not said that. They're not wildly out anyway, in terms of what they've been paying.

Dan: Some clients have gone up in terms of the fee. but again, it's the conversation about what we're providing for them, what we have been providing. The services enhanced since those conversations we had originally. So I think some of those challenges are all in our heads. And I don't think we give ourselves enough credit in terms of the feelings, goodwill, the job, the service that we provide our clients. Our clients are with us because they trust us. They like us. They want to work with us and they want to be part of our business. So they fully understand that things move on and that businesses grow and industries and professions change. So I think a lot of it is in our heads and we sometimes are quite hesitant to make changes because we think the clients are gonna kick up and we have this conversation internally around what our clients are going to think.

Dan: But we haven't had the challenges at all that we thought we would have. So, my advice, if you're transitioning is to just do it and to have those conversations with the client, but be absolutely understanding about the service that you are providing. And that is the one thing we made sure that we had nailed down, it's the service that we are going to provide them, the way that we're providing it to them, what we do, recapping what we've done for them, but being really, really focused on what you're providing them and the fee you're charging for that. I just think all clients will be accepting of that. They have in our circumstance. And do you know what? In the harshest possible term, if they're not, then maybe they weren't right for you in the first place.

Kate: Yeah, totally agree. Well, what a testament to you and what you've all built at TFP that you've got those clients that are with you on that journey and do want to stay, and that's such a powerful thing to create, and it's fantastic to hear that you haven't had any pushback. One of the things I want to understand is, so did you go from an assets under management model to this flat fee structure?

Dan: It's been a gradual process. So it went from originally, percentage charges for everything. So percentage charges for initial work and then percentage charges for ongoing work based on assets. And the first thing that we got rid of, five or six years ago was the percentage charging for initial work. So then the initial work has been a fixed fee, kind of a project fee effectively for what we're going to do for the clients for four or five years. so clients have been used to paying a fixed fee for that. So we moved away from upfront percentage charging based on wealth. And we've done that quite forcefully. There are a number of businesses that I see now, which we might get them to in a bit, that are charging a planning fee, fixed fee for a planning fee, and then still charging a percentage to implement assets.

Dan: I'm not a massive fan of that. so we went to a fixed project fee and then the last bit of the transition over the last 18 months has been fixed fees for all the ongoing work that we do. And that's probably been the most challenging piece because that traditional ongoing assets under management model is what 95, 96, maybe more percent of advisors in the UK are doing. And you know, more and more are coming about that are doing fixed fees for everything. And it's so wonderful to see so many businesses that are either launching or transitioning to this model. so that's the journey that we've gone on. It's the fixed fee initial bit was the first piece of the puzzle. Once we were really comfortable with that now the transition of clients, on a one to one ongoing basis that we've been doing for the last 12 months that we continue to do, not everybody is in this place and evolution, like I said, of what we're doing, not everybody is paying us a fixed fee at the moment that we want them to do. All new clients are, but there are still clients that we're moving them on to the fixed ongoing fee model.

Kate: And when you started that, the fixed ongoing, did you start that with new clients to use that as an opportunity to test out the model or did you start with existing clients and still bring people on with the ongoing AUM model?

Dan: So new clients originally the first step. So, when we finalized what the model look like, and we took all of our experiences about the services that we provide our existing clients and came up with the service and fee model that was for new clients entering the business actually very quickly, really quickly, we found that, although we knew it was the right thing, really quickly, we found that this is absolutely the way that you need to go. And the transition is going to be a bit easier than what we thought. And so, you know, we started going into our existing clients and talk to them about the new service and because we had it in a position where we knew exactly what the fee for service was, again, we were just, I think, hugely passionate about this.

Dan: And that passion and focus and purpose comes across to our clients and they fully understand what we're doing and why we're doing it. and understand that it comes back to a point I think I made in the first time that we talked, you know, myself and my, my other director, we are, I'm just the right side of 40. He's just the other side of 4. We're in this for the long term. And we have to have an eye on the evolution of our profession and industry and where it's going. And we talked to our clients about that, and clients really appreciate this. You know, our clients are with us for 20, 30 years I think they want to know that our fingers on the pulse about what's going on. We're not going to just stand there and sit there and accept stuff.

Dan: We have to be part of a movement that takes this profession forward. and we talked to them about the scenarios that might happen. You know, we'd say to them, it might be at some point in the future that the regulator bans taking any fees from product like done in other countries. I think it will come in in the UK at some point, put me in the hat on and get abused, but I think it will come. I think at some point in the future, there will be some sort of ban on taking fees from products. So this is about us saying, it's a fee for service that we want you to pay us. And when you get used to that, if there's anything come our way in the future, this is not going to be a shock. We're already set up for what we believe is going to be the future of our profession.

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. I agree. And thinking back to starting that with new clients, was there anything that you refined in that process as you did that with new clients, either in the fee model or the language around it, how you communicated it?

Dan: Yeah. Lots. There was no real blueprint to it. There's a couple of quite high profile planners in the UK that charged this way. And we had some conversation with those guys. Lots has changed and the fee has changed a little bit over the last 18 months. and again, the way that we communicate has been, it's now a lot more purposeful than it was 12 months ago. You know, we know this works, we know it's the right way. We know the industry is moving this way and the profession moving this way. We know clients are becoming more switched on to the fees that they pay. It's more transparent, investment management fees, planning fees. and so the language that we use has definitely changed, but it feels like when we first started we might've been justifying it a little bit. You end up getting on the back foot a little bit with it, but now we're firmly on the front foot. There's no justification. This is how we do it. This is why we do it. This is the fee that we charge, and this is why we are really good at what we do. And it's that focus that comes in.

Kate: Yeah. And that's great to hear. And that's what I've always recommended to advisers. You know, this has been going on for years now, as people are looking at shifting their models and so often you're right, they absolutely get in their heads and think, how are we going to have this conversation? And so my advice has always been start with new clients. That's a perfect guinea pig for it. And that will allow you to refine that pitch and get that confidence and get that feedback and shift the model so that when it is time to go to your clients, you're fully ready. And look at the results you had, no pushback. Everyone's fully on board and shows what a forward-looking evolving organization you have.

Dan: Yeah, absolutely. I could not agree more. Absolutely. And like you say, you can refine that. You can understand what the feedback has been and actually, we got some really good, testimonials is probably the wrong word, but that feedback you get from clients that have come to us from other advisors that have worked with us and our fee model is very different, but it gives you more confidence and we've had comments like, well, I don't get why everyone charges that way then because I get this, this makes absolute perfect sense. So why does 95% of the industry charge that way? And you get more confidence that actually, yeah, we are doing the right thing and this does make sense. and you take that confidence into those existing client conversations, which actually where you probably need to be more confident about what you're doing. So absolutely agree with you. It's worked really well for us.

Kate: Awesome. And thinking about that traditional fee model, being the assets under management, and we chatted a little about this on the last episode, but one of the biggest challenges is that it makes it completely inaccessible to so many people that don't have assets to manage. And so your fee for the flat fee service, it is not accessible to everyone, but you've also taken that challenge and created a way of helping the traditionally underserved.

Dan: Yeah. well, I absolutely love the coaching, the planning, the understanding, the conversations, those light bulb moments. I love helping clients come to their own conclusions. It's such a powerful piece of what we do. I love having conversations with couples that they've never had before and all of those things that are just wonderful financial planning, removing anxieties, decluttering pieces, reorganizing thoughts. and actually for me, none of that is advice. None of that is in the traditional sentence. So none of that is a regulated advice piece and what I want to do and what I'm going to launch very shortly. And you've had guests on the podcast have talked brilliantly about this and where financial planning done properly is financial coaching. That's the future. And for me, the underserved need financial planning and coaching.

Dan: They don't necessarily need advice. You know, you've got Vanguard over in the UK now making waves with direct to consumer pensions and that cost absolute fraction of anything they're going to get anywhere. product advice, investment advice, it's a commodity, it's getting more and more commoditized, but what the 30 and 40 year olds need is guidance, education, coaching, and planning. They need that in abundance. And for me, it's all about a non-regulated financial coaching program that makes it more accessible for them because, you know, to turn the lights on in an IFA or regulated financial planner practice costs money from compliance and regulatory costs and public indemnity insurance and everything else you have to have. and I just don't think they need it. And the model of only delivering advice to these groups. So you can't come this way because I've got my assets that I can charge you from and you can't come this way cause you can't afford my minimum fee. Cause that minimum fee helps me stay in business.

Dan: Let's blow that out of the water. I mean, we all know as financial planners that 80 to 85% of the impact that we have on our client has nothing to do with regulated device, nothing. And in fact, there might be occasions when a lot more is nothing to do with regulated advice. so that's the model that I want to bring. It's a coaching and planning model that sits down with clients on a one to one basis, people that are accumulating, but actually don't know what they're accumulating for. they don't understand necessarily their relationship with money or where they're, why money is important to them. And we go through those questions. We have a look at some financial planning methods for them, much like we do in normal. So cash flow modeling, et cetera, but just giving them the space and the freedom to talk about these things, understand what they're doing, transport them into the future.

Dan: So they can see that they actually need to make some decisions now if they want that life going forward and then help them and show them how to do it themselves, if they want to, if they're short on product or they need a pension and they need an ICER, just show them the four or five websites that they can go on, help them understand what financial risks are, help them understand that stuff. They can go away and set up a pension themselves. It takes 10 minutes on Vanguard to set up a pension, to transfer anything across to them and to set up a regular payment i. And we can show those people what you need to pay in regularly. If you need to and all that stuff, they can go and do that bit themselves. And they don't need to pay you the fees that would warrant regulated advice.

Dan: So yeah, I think this advice gap piece has been rumbling for ages. And I just think we've been looking at it wrong because we've been looking at it through a very traditional mindset where advice has to be the end product, advice is the be all and end all and advice isn't the future, at all. And I think financial coaching and planning and that model is not just going to be reserved for the 30 and 40 year olds. There'll be people that will go through retirement that will just have financial coaches and planners in the future as products become more commoditized. So I think it's hugely important. And, that to me is how we plug the advice gap. Give people the opportunity to be heard, give people the opportunity to be sat down, but instead of costing three and a half, 4,000 pounds, it can cost them 750 pounds because they're just paying for your time. And with the way things are now, you're in Las Vegas, I'm in rainy Essex, this can be done remote. There's no overhead. So there's no need for this to be office based at all. It's a wonderful opportunity for us as financial planners and coaches to take that model and take it into the underserved because it doesn't always have to end with advice.

Kate: Yeah. And Dan, you're not just talking about it and preaching about it and pulling numbers out of the air. This is coming from, you've actually just launched this lower cost financial coaching program.

Dan: Yeah. So, put together a sister company to TFP called Wealth and Wellbeing. And that comes from a place of, and we might get into this with retirement, but you know, financial wellbeing. And you've had guests on here from the UK as well. And talking about wellbeing and financial wellbeing or financial anxieties are huge. And I think for people in their thirties and forties, financial wellbeing is hugely important for them. So having a service that they can go to where they can talk about these things and get their wellbeing in order. And I always talk about finances being that little chirpy, annoying person sitting on your shoulder that just is constantly there because unless you do something about it or you understand where you're heading to, or why these things need to be done, then it doesn't go away.

Dan: So yeah, Wealth and Wellbeing has been launched. A financial coaching program has been put together, and delighted to have launched that very, very recently. And, we'll be making more noise and more waves about that as we go on. And, I've taken a few people through the coaching program as a test cases and it's been fantastic. It's been hugely well received in the comments. Like 'I would never have got access to this.' 'I never thought I could get access to this'. 'I thought I needed, you know, 300, 400,000 pound in pension funds before I could even speak to someone like you'. And it's quite a sad reality for our profession that the public think about us like that, so I'm delighted to have launched it. And I can't wait to get the experience out to people that I think truly need it.

Kate: Absolutely. So £750. What does that include? What does the program look like?

Dan: Yeah, so, it's going to be six meetings that take people all the way through a kind of traditional fact-finding data gathering exercise, but, not quite like what we've known before in a regulated world, but find out more about them. and then going through a values and goals exercise. So setting the foundations with them, all face to face or zoom to zoom meetings. Really understanding them values wise. Why is money important to them? What do they want to do with it? What are they looking to achieve? Really building that foundation with them. I'm trying to open their eyes up to start to think about those things and encourage those conversations between each other. Once we've done that, you go into some cashflow modeling and you start talking about, this is your situation now, and this is what you're doing, and this is where your shortfalls are.

Dan: And how do you feel about that? Know what's really important to you over the next 12 months and two years. I think what I've found going through this, this is about trying to keep things a bit shorter for people. So, you know, saying someone in their thirties, but you need to plan for when you're 60, quite a challenge, but actually they've got shorter term concerns. There's lots of transitions for people in their thirties and forties. So a career challenges, career transition, children, those kinds of things that happen. So this is kind of mapping all of those out and then going into some education. So then we have another meeting. So we talk about, and I would ascertain their levels of knowledge around this stuff. but talk about risk, talk about products, talk about investments, just to kind of have a really good open discussion about where that lies, introduced to them, the different types of products that they could go into and why and how and what, then we do some final planning.

Dan: So then yeah, we kind of sit down and we'd go through with it. This is some of the realities that we've been talking about, create a one page plan for them that has, three, six and 12 month action points on it, and then have a final wrap up meeting that they then kind of go away and say, look, these are the things you need to do over the next three, four, five months to make sure that you get that momentum going. and then what I've done is when they've gone away, they have a real clear understanding about what they need to do. And then the biggest thing for me is about this ongoing piece. So for me, it's saying that we need to review this, but you don't need to pay me a monthly fee to do it when you want to review it.

Dan: It is a hundred pounds to sit down with me for, I don't care how long it takes to sit down and we'll sit down and we'll review and we go through, but we should sit down once a year minimum, but ideally two or three times. And if you've got some quite crucial action points that you need to deliver on, and it might be where, you know, you haven't got a will or your power of attorneys are not in place, or you said that you really desperately want to set a pension up and you want to do it well, let's catch up in three months time because I want to hold you accountable to this. Cause that's what a good coach does. And instead of paying me monthly to do that, you just pay me when we sit down. And then I think people just seem a bit more freer about that.

Dan: It's kind of, I know I'm paying for what I'm getting. And, I think that's really important. And that's some really positive feedback about that model. It's kind of, you know, I feel like I can just book in a meeting with you and I know how much it's going to cost, and I know what we're going to talk about because you know me, you know the situation, you've given me these action points to do in three months. so yeah, if I don't know how to explain it great, but that's the kind of process that it will go through.

Kate: Then will this also be an opportunity to bring in younger planners or junior planners and have them working on this side of the business to get some of that experience before potentially moving on to the more complex clients?

Dan: Yeah, we've talked about it. I think for us bringing in financial planners in the future, we would want their grounding to be in coaching and planning rather than kind of technical knowledge and, and spreadsheets and numbers. That is where the future lies. So having the ability to do this and get people used to that way of thinking before you then bring in numbers for people that are in retirement effectively, I think it's a great grounding. And we've got a really vibrant staff, they're all under 30 and they're working their way up and paraplanners and admin support and trainee paraplanners. And it's just a great route for them to go into as we built this service out. And it's a great way for them to talk to their friends and their mates about the benefits of financial planning and coaching can do. So yeah, I think it's win-win.

Kate: Yeah. And so last question on that, over those six meetings, what's the time period for those?

Dan: Yeah. So it's going to be about eight to eight to 10 hours. I reckon something like that. you know, the planning meeting will be a couple of hours, cause it's the questions around the what ifs and what happens here. And the first meeting they have a bit of homework to do, so fill out some stuff for me and sit down together as a couple and answer the question, why is money important to me? And answer those questions together. and then we come back and talk about it. So yeah, between between eight and 10 hours a plan. But again, I don't want to be too prescriptive to where this goes, you know, it's nine o'clock, you've got an hour go. That type of thing. I don't want people to feel like that. So it kind of takes as long as it takes, but if I'm good at my job then, and it shouldn't take that long, if that makes sense, you know, we should be able to get through it, but if they want to talk and I've got a really good open question for them and I'm getting great value and they're getting great value out of this and then it carries on. so there's no prescriptive, and I think that's really important.

Kate: I love that. And then all six meetings, does that happen over a couple of months?

Dan: Yeah. So, it's kind of a 10-week process, ideally. I think when I get this with the retirement planning that we do, sometimes momentum is momentum. That the biggest thing that we have on our side, and if we lose it with clients, it can really take a bit of a dive. So particularly with people that are exploring this potentially for the first time, the momentum needs to stay up, they need to stay energized. They need to stay on top of it. If I've got them in a place that they're ready to take action, I need to damn well make sure they take action, because if they don't, then we all know we as human beings, we take the path of least resistance and logging on at eight o'clock to do something isn't always the thing that we want to do at night.

Dan: It's a week gap between meetings and a two week gap between a couple of them to give them the opportunity to digest what was talked about and understand and get in the rhythm and get in the mental space to do that. Cause we do delve quite deep in this and asking people's values and asking people's pasts and their relationships and why they feel like that, it does open up stuff that they need to just get comfortable with. but momentum is such a key when it comes to that initial bit of financial planning, keeping the energy high, keeping the momentum going, keeping the actions going, it's not, I'll see you in a month's time. This is a see you next week. and part of what I do with them and in a nutshell, taking this ethos into the retirement planning side as well, but making sure that we book the next meeting in while we're having this one, keep that momentum going. Here's some action points I want you to consider and our meeting's in a week and I'll see you then, and please have them ready because we're going to discuss these. I think it's a really crucial element. So yeah. Trying to squeeze that time to go down, to keep the momentum going and energy high.

Kate: Yeah. All right, Dan, so you've mentioned retirement a few times and TFPs home page right on the front there, it says "creating extraordinary retirements," but you and I have chatted and you are not a fan of the word retirement.

Dan: No, I'd love to put something different, but unfortunately that word is ingrained. And I think if we put something different, then it would probably cause more questions than what it needs to. I hope in my career, they come up with a better term for it. But no, I mean, we use financial independence a lot. That is probably the phrase that replaces it a lot. I don't know what other, I mean, the trouble I have is that the definition of retirement is literally to kind of, I remember my granddad retiring and he retired on a Friday and literally then sat in a chair in his slippers on the Monday and didn't really move. And that's a withdrawal. You withdraw from job, you withdraw from society, you withdraw from any purpose and you get this secure pension income that comes in and you just basically live to the bare means that you can, I mean, we've moved on massively from that.

Dan: So now I don't have a suggestion. I want to come up with something. but it's that, you know, retirement is, as Carl Richard says, it's such a dumb concept now, it's just stupid because it's whoever wants to withdraw and why do we let government or colleagues or pension schemes dictate to us when we retire? If you are someone that when you want to retire, 95% of people will say 65 or 66, because that's when the state pension comes in or that's what's on my pension statement. and that really does frustrate me because that's not what this is about. And it's doing more of the stuff that you love, doing less of the things that you don't, and there's no age or number that suggests that that's what you need, that when that happens, and you need to be purposeful in life and to trouble is when you kind of retire later, you do end up withdrawing and it's some ingrained and parents have a massive influence on us.

Dan: And you, you know, I see clients coming through now saying, Oh, my parents retired at 65 and they did this and did that. And actually it's influencing them that they don't want to do that. They don't want to be retiring then and just kind of withering away. So, yeah, it's, I'm not a massive fan. We use financial independence but even then, I don't think you need to be financially independent to do more of the things that you love doing and less the things that you don't. My biggest passion and I've seen the good and the bad side of this is that spending window. So while I don't like retirement it's because if we take it in traditional sense, you'll miss out on your best years of spending your money whilst your health is good whilst you've got time on your side, you know, between the ages of 50 and 65, that's when you should be front-loading your spending.

Dan: One of my clients said you've helped me front load the farm. And that's what we talk to people about. Don't wait for an age. If you can facilitate ways of spending your money, getting time back on your side, that has to be what this is all about. And if you can do that at 45 or 55 or 60, then you have to do it, but people need confidence and the comfort that they can achieve that and do that. and that's where I think our main job as retirement planning specialists and retirement planning planners, we have to encourage our clients to spend their money whilst their health is good. And that's why "retirement" is just the dumbest thing in the world. Don't wait for someone to tell you that you can do something, do it. Absolutely do it.

Kate: Yeah, there, there's a great quote that says, "People often spend their health to gain wealth and then spend their wealth to regain their health."

Dan: Phenomenal.

Kate: And that just that sits with me and it keeps coming back and it's so true and powerful.

Dan: And we see it, don't we? And I think I try and use those experiences that we see with people that delay and delay and delay, and you hear people and we get one shot at this and that, life is not a rehearsal and health and wealth together. And I wrote something late last year about the window of spending opportunity that I've just talked about. And I say to clients, the reality is you hit early seventies and you're going to slow down. You're going to slow down. You're not going to sit on a plane for 24 hours. You're not going to go on that cruise. You know, that's the reality. I mean, you might, but you hit mid seventies and it really does slow down. So don't wait to do this stuff. Don't wait to do it.

Dan: And I think that's why it's so dum. I wish we could take the time and paperwork and ages off. It it puts shackles on people that I just don't think they need to be able to enjoy the life that they should have. And we should all want to strive to do more of the things that we love and less of the things that we don't. And then when we hit a time in retirement, and I think that's the key thing for me, it's time, whatever time it will give you is the time to do it. And we should all be in a position as financial planners to take that privilege position that we have to show our clients that they can absolutely utilize their time to its fullest capacity.

Kate: Love it. Dan, thank you so much. Thanks for all the inspiration and actionable advice. And I said, these are conversations that I am a part of with other advisors and I see happening. So thank you for being so open about your process about what's worked and what hasn't worked and advice to other planners. Any final words?

Dan: As I think I said at the end of the last one, I think we want to evolve. We need to make sure that we are absolutely leaving our egos at the door, being our clients sidekick, making sure they're the star of their own show. And I just want us to, we are, getting there. And just take advantage of that. I said it last time, that real privileged position that we're in and, making sure that the client is the star of their own show and allowing them to take advantage of that time. I think it's just an amazing opportunity for us to do that.

Kate: Yeah. Well that all bears repeating. So thank you. Thanks for being on a second time. And as you continue to roll out this financial coaching program and it evolves and it grows, I can see you coming on the show again, Dan, to keep talking about that.

Dan: Love to, thank you, Kate.

Kate: Thanks, Dan.