Emotion Recognition Software Improves Trust, Efficiency and Value with Dave Bruno [Ep20]

Updated: Jul 24, 2020

Welcome to episode 20 of the Innovating Advice show. 

I’m joined by Dave Bruno, who has extensive experience in financial services and innovation. Dave founded the WM Innovation Lab at UBS, the world’s largest wealth manager. He continues to be involved in a number of fintech, innovation and startup initiatives and now works with a company called NVISO on their Insights Advise tool, which we first heard about from Joel Drake on Episode 16

Insights Advise is a digital platform, powered by AI software, that observes clients’ reactions – through their facial micro-expressions – to help advisors gain deeper insights into their clients needs and wants. 

To show you exactly how the tool works, we’ve broken this episode up into two parts — the podcast episode and an accompanying demo webinar that can you watch right below. 


Guest Bio

Dave Bruno has 25 years experience in financial services with expertise in wealth management & private banking and insurance. He founded the innovation lab at UBS the world’s largest wealth manager that launched several new businesses. Dave developed the rocket strategy for innovating inside a corporation that uses stages of investment to rapidly validate and Scaleup new business models. Dave previously held senior roles in operational finance as team leader, has built IT systems, holds his US CPA and runs a popular podcast series MakerZone on YouTube and iTunes.

Dave is now a venture builder, working on the “inside” with startup founders to turn their new models into high-growth investable companies. His current challenges include bringing emotional recognition into the financial advisor industry and solving the online credit card fraud crisis. Dave also regularly supports entrepreneurs who are putting it all on the line to change our world for the better.

Full Podcast Transcript

Kate: Grüezi, Dave.

Dave: Grüezi. Hello.

Kate: So that is a way to say hello in Swiss German. And, while you’re joining us from the U.S. you are from Switzerland, you’ve spent a lot of time there and INVISO is headquartered in the aptly named Innovation Park in Switzerland.

Dave: That’s right. INVISO, our headquarters is at Lausanne, which is also the home of the International Olympic Committee and a bunch of other international organizations and it’s beautiful. If you ever get a chance to go to Lausanne, Switzerland I highly recommend it. Beautiful lake, mountains, sunshine, palm trees. You wouldn’t believe it.

Kate: Yes. It’s stunning there. All of Switzerland is beautiful. I was last there. I’ve been to Switzerland probably three or four times. The last time I was there. I actually made it up to a Jungfraujoch, which was just stunning. It wasn’t even something I had heard of, but it is the highest point that people can go in Europe. And I would say it is an absolute bucket list item.

Dave: Yeah. Thank you for saying that. I’ve also been up there. It’s, it’s gorgeous. I’m originally, I grew up in the U.S. so I’m still, you’re always a foreigner in Switzerland if you weren’t born there. Yeah. But I lived there for 20 years. I have the passport, I speak Swiss German. My French is decent. So definitely had a great experience there. And I highly recommend traveling to Switzerland if you ever get a chance.

Kate: Yeah, well nobody gets a chance right now. But yes, once we’re able to travel again, maybe there’ll be some good deals and a good time to go.

So Dave, thank you for joining the show and being open to doing this a little bit differently.

So we’re doing this in two parts. We have a recorded demo of the Insights ADVISE platform that NVISO has created. And so you can link to that in the show notes below and that walks through exactly what it looks like. It looks at the report. And then here on the podcast we’re going to be talking through a little bit of it. 

And I actually want to start with your background. You have a lot of experience in different areas of innovation within financial services. So can you share with us a little bit about what you’ve been involved in, what you’ve seen in terms of innovation over the past few years and then where you see it going over the next few years?

Always Looking Forward And Client-Centric

Dave: Yeah, that’s a great question. Thank you. So I’m formerly head of innovation for UBS wealth management. I didn’t get that as one of these typical innovation journeys. I actually worked at the bank. I was working at UBS in operational finance roles. We built systems and processes and changed things and before that at Credit Suisse, so I kind of knew the space and I had the great opportunity to work with a person who unfortunately passed away on Monday, his name was Jürg Zeltner. 

He was a great spiritual guide in Switzerland. He was a fantastic private banker, one of the most famous private bankers and I was directly in his staff team for a bunch of years. What Jürg was doing was creating a thought leader out of the wreckage at UBS after the last financial crisis. And I was just a complete believer in that mission. And out of thought leadership, we started an innovation set of labs, not just playing with new technologies as is typically done, and trying to figure out where will this industry go and how can we lead that. 

And so ours was a little bit different than your typical innovation lab. We are creating new business models. So we met with all the founders of robo-advisors, risk planning tools, CRMs, and we saw the tech. But we also look at the sociological trends in equal measure. So silver society, millennials are different. All the trends that we saw, work from home, we definitely spotted, you know, in terms of how you advise in the year 2020, 2040, it’s fun way back in the year, 2013, 2020 was seen as the distant future and we planning work from home tools for advisors and workbenches. So, so there you have it. 

We can give advisors – who we truly believe are still the core to the industry and will be – much more ability to perform at scale and at speed with the clients.

So here we are, sort of seven years later, one of the things that we created at least as a concept is what I’m still working on today. So that’s this Insights ADVISE product and it’s based on the belief that we can do better than just risk profiling clients. We can give advisors – who we truly believe are still the core to the industry and will be – much more ability to perform at scale and at speed with the clients.

Kate: That’s great. And when you’re talking about sort of new business models, did you look at all, as you’re thinking about the different generations and how people are going to work with advisors, did you look at sort of the elements of financial planning in terms of being modular versus traditional planning? Did you look at fee structures? What about business models were you looking into?

Dave: That’s a really good question because one of the biggest spheres as margins truly plummeted, especially in the higher echelons of wealth where UBS was focused is how do we recover some of those margins and where are the good margins in the future? How do we advise clients at all? Will it move to an hourly rate? Will it move to a daily rate? Is it your traditional percentage of assets under management? How do we enhance the advice process? 

And so there was, there’s really some incredible stuff being done at that time, which is still going on about automating the advice process to overnight portfolio health checks. How do you get people closer to where they should be? Having an own house view. Some of the stuff that, that I was witnessing enter mainline production was incredible and we were working on the fringe of that.

So where’s the edge? So it’s determining from other data that you might have about people, what might their preferences lead them to? Where would their affinity’s be? And so a lot of our stuff was more in that, what I’ll call touchy feely space of how do we better understand our clients without being invasive or intrusive? 

And, it is really pretty neat to look at the wealth planning journey, so to speak, and goals-based planning because we launched a robo-advisor, for example, ourselves. It was around goals-based planning. There’s, how do you give people concrete value, especially in the affluent segment so that they can do better things.

Constraints of the AUM Model

Kate: Good. That’s great. Well and I have to say one of the things that I keep thinking of as it feels to me like so much of the emotional side of what’s happening in the markets and the economy mirrors a lot with what happened in the global financial crisis. 

And I was an advisor then and that was, you know, a few years before I started my practice, way back as you just mentioned in 2013 and I was working from home and working remote then. But one of the things that that got me to start my practice the way I did, which didn’t have assets under management, never sold anything, was just a flat monthly retainer was a lot of what I saw in the financial crisis. And I’m actually seeing it happen in conversations within, you know, Facebook groups and communities of advisors around the world. 

As I think about like innovation and business models and the touchy feely stuff and working with clients around that goals-based advice, one of my personal biases against the AUM model and why I really love what you guys are building with Insights ADVISE at and INVISO is that I think the AUM model has the wrong conversations and I think it sort of puts the wrong focus in clients’ minds because, in times like this, they think it is only about the investments. It’s only about my portfolio and they’re not seeing the bigger picture. 

So that’s one thing that I’m really trying to do with, you know, the Innovating Advice show is highlighting the bigger parts of financial planning and financial advice and why these other things are so important. And that goes for technology, business models and whatnot.

Dave: Totally agree. Basically the AUM model is not dead, but it does cause severe constraints on the relationship. How do you become a trusted advisor when you’re just doing a flat fee across some random set of assets, right. And so that’s why the margin pressure is there, especially in the higher segments. 

If you’re going to invest $1 billion, you’re not going to want to pay a percentage and a half just to get whatever happens in the market. If you’re a poor or rich person, a multifamily office, if you were, you know, a richer rich person, then you’ve got a single family officer taking care of your financial affairs for you. And a bank is just an execution platform, a custody partner. And so as you come down that scale into the affluent segments and the margin is actually increased because people have less power. 

And it’s that segment that I’m most concerned about personally. So it’s the place where advisors have a lot of people in their book and they have less time to deal with them because they have less invested, if they call their top five clients, there is probably a high correlation to how much client those kinds of invested with them rather than how much support they actually need.

Kate: Yes, yes.

You should be calling the people who need help right now. And it’s hard to tell who those are. And that’s why we’re trying to generate tools that can help advisors kind of choose who do I need to talk to and why. What’s the context?

Dave: And that’s a conflict. It may not be the traditional conflict of interest from an SEC perspective, but you should be calling the people who need help right now. And it’s hard to tell who those are. And that’s why we’re trying to generate tools that can help advisors kind of choose who do I need to talk to and why. What’s the context.

The Why Behind Insights ADVISE

Kate: Yeah. And what about, so let’s dive into that. So now you’re at NVISO so talk us through what you guys are building and why – and I’m with you – why it should be part of every advisor’s process.

Dave: I don’t want to say we saw work-from-home coming, but the trend that we see is towards independent advisors who we truly love. What I saw at the big banks was that best of the best advisers at some point in their career, give it a go and try to go independent either as a family officer or as a true, you know, kind of RIA model, trust-based advisor. And they realize I can do this myself. And what we see as one of the biggest trends is that self-empowerment, if you’ve got LinkedIn premium, Redtail as a CRM or Salesforce and you can onboard clients and have some custody partners and do basic transactions, you can use your personality to generate quite a great book of business. That’s why so many former athletes, for example, become great financial advisors.

Kate: And some become not good financial advisors…

Dave: And some become not good, but at least they become popular. So basically you can self assemble being a financial advisor now. You can pull the components together and there’s still some missing pieces to build a big scalable book. So who’s to say that people land with sort of between 150-250 clients, right, if they’ve got a really big institutional book. Why can’t that be a thousand? It’s because you can’t scale your time enough. And so this work from home phenomenon, is actually a blessing in disguise for advisors. If you can do 10 calls every morning and know who needs help, you can have a very active, lively book that trusts you.

Kate: Interesting. So what would you say though, if an advisor had a thousand clients, I mean, you would need quite a few support staff for that.

Dave: You may well do. It depends on how automated your onboarding process is, how automated your tracking process is. But if you work with some of the big players, you know, if you’ve got Schwab and BlackRock and the others, the tools that they give you today as an advisor are really great. 

So we’re creating a tool in a, in a green field or a white space, we see there aren’t many tools, which is this deeper understanding, behavioral finance stuff that goes beyond just risk tolerances into what are people worried about right now, what do they care about, what are they feeling and what are their priorities. Because those things change as circumstances change. If you only meet every January with them, you won’t pick up on those important moments. And you do care as an advisor. That’s why you became an advisor. So if you care, we want you to have better tools to do that. But basically, it’s a great time to become an independent, at least in my view.

Kate: Absolutely. And I, I agree, which is, that’s a drum I’ve been beating for a long time and I will continue to and encouraging advisors all over the world who might be in regions or areas that don’t yet have independent advisors of showing what’s possible from other countries. And a big part of that is needing the technology to allow them to excel at their job and to be able to serve their clients. And you know, you mentioned 10 calls every morning, but you’re right, it’s not about the quantity of the calls, it’s about the quality. So it’s about knowing who are those 10 that you’re calling, why are you calling them and what is the context for that. 

Building Trust Through Technology 

So I’ve gone through the process of using Insights ADVISE,  I signed up for it and I signed up sort of on the advisor side so I’ve seen the backend, I’ve done it on the front end as a client side and we walked through all of that in the webinar that you can link to in the show notes. If someone is out for a walk right now outside, hopefully you’re able to go for a walk outside and listening to this podcast. Let’s talk a little bit through what that looks like. So why, why did you create Insights ADVISE and what does it do?

Dave: Okay, so our hypothesis that we wanted to test was that advisors need  more ability to enhance their performance in terms of not just advise on functional topics like tax, debt, real estate, you know. The most value in the relationship from a client perspective is out of that trusted advisor relationship, which means, you know, my family, you know, my situation now, how it’s changing and you can answer to my concerns and I really trust you as a person. 

We talk on an eye to eye basis as a peer. The only way you can get there at scale with people is to keep in touch with them. And that’s really hard to do over email. So we created this tool set. Basically it’s an experience that uses an online journey and a two to three minute video where your client watches a video. And for that two or three minutes we observe their emotional reactions.

So you can position eight or 12 topics in there, not just around the traditional tax and estate planning and education for children, but also around boredom in job, working in unusual circumstances, market volatility, things that really concern people, medical care or health issues. And you can see where their priorities are. And typically what we see is that their stated priorities, what they fill out at the first part of the experience turn out to be different than their expressed or observed priorities. So they get that as a report and you do too if they let you and therefore you can see where those things have breaks and where you need to talk to the client.

Kate: And it’s observing it through micro facial expressions, which is not something that humans can easily see. And I’ll admit when I went through it, I was trying to like see if I could trick it by having different facial expressions in different areas. But I think as we see with a lot of the technical side of things,  the computer, I think, was smarter than me. And I think it figured out what my underlying reaction was, which did actually surprise me in a couple of occasions. 

When Technology Knows Us Better Than We Know Ourselves

Kate: And I mentioned this in the webinar, but it was interesting because one of the things that, you know, we know as advisors when you really are diving in with a client to look at is, what is the life they want before creating the plan to get there. Most clients don’t know what they want. You know, you’re going through life, you’re checking the boxes, you’ve got your job and your kids and your family and school and house and you don’t actually pause to go, okay, this might be what I’m quote unquote supposed to be doing, but is it what I want to be doing? Is it what is truly deep down important to me? 

And that’s what I am so fascinated with with what you  are building. And there are other applications that you’re using it for. It’s not just on the financial advice side. So you are really are diving into this on a grander scale. But you know, keeping it with the advice side, it opens up very interesting conversations I even just had with myself. You know, I’m home alone, so I’ll talk to myself a little bit. 🙂  But I can only imagine the conversations that it would have between spouses as well. And my husband is an airline pilot, so he’s gone flying empty planes full of other pilots right now… Cause that’s who’s flying. But I was curious when he gets home, I might have him do it as well because I think that would open up an interesting conversation. As much as we are in alignment on like everything other than how to load a dishwasher, I wonder if this would, you know, show some differences.

Dave: Yeah. We did extensive client interviews, obviously as a, as a startup and back in a lab environment. And the spousal advisory situation is especially important, today, but also in places like Asia, right, where typically, this is generalizing, but the female tends to be the CFO. They run the financial wellness of the family organization. Then the man goes and makes money and works and does all this stuff. 

So it’s kind of, they need to be in alignment on the topics. And typically people aren’t and they aren’t aware of it or they haven’t addressed it. And so it’s good to have that conversation with an unbiased third party, which is your trusted advisor. You can say, where are we actually on the health situation that we have, taking care of your joint parents,  have we talked about that in last time? Because the days of stock picking for clients and making commissions on that, at least from my perspective were over a while ago. Some people can generate a good book off of that, but I think that longer term you want to be that trusted person who we can help the client through difficult situations and also, you know, happy, great situations. So yeah, that’s why we, that’s why we built this.

Kate: Yeah. And the importance of clients doing it separately. I used to do, I specialized in going into companies and working with employees and I would go in, this was in the early days of FinaMetrica, which I feel like was, I don’t know, 10, 15 years ago. And it was the paper form. And I would go into like a bunch of bank branches or medical offices and sometimes I would have people take it home and I would encourage them to do it and have their spouse do it as well because that’s an important conversation. 

And then I would come back the next day and time, and again, they would say, you know, I don’t know if I got it right, but this is what my husband answered. And it was like they would kind of cheat off of each other. Like it was a test. As much as I told them, there were no wrong answers. That’s not how it works. And that’s also what makes this so fascinating is you can’t really cheat. Like I said, I kind of, I tried to fool the system just to see if I could, but the way that it reads your micro expressions that humans can’t even see, it’s getting to those deeper conversations. So it, it has, I think, a little more value than risk tolerance. And I guess I’d say I’ve, I’ve long been fairly skeptical on a lot of risk tolerance questionnaires and systems.

Dave: A lot of people are. If you read Michael Kitces’ blog on that, he nails it, right, because he doesn’t pull punches on what he says about that. A lot of the financial industry realizes this and yet we got to check the boxes for MiFID, but there’s a lot more you can do to generate good solid business for yourself.

Thoughtfully Connecting Prospects and Advisors

Dave: A word about the technology, so I don’t believe in just using technology because it’s there. The reason that we, we pulled this down off the shelf and started to use it was because of that the use case and the need for advisors to be able to scale up their books of business. And my bugbear, or the thing that pisses me off the most, is that if you’re advising for Wells Fargo right now, right, how do you get new clients? They’re handed to you off of a desk. Most of those came off of word of mouth, college buddies, friend of a friend, racketball club. It’s a random process. 

If it comes through the website, there’s no match of affinity’s to you, right, like you won’t get a client from Chicago if you live in LA. Why not? The perfect partner for you might be there. That’s how you use LinkedIn. That’s how you use Tinder or other dating platforms, right. And yet Wells Fargo, and I, sorry to pick on you, but there’s plenty of other banks that do the same. They base everything based on branch, location, geography and amount of wealth, which means that you’re an advisor on the affluent desk. You might pick up the lead off of the website, but it’s pretty random. You have no connection to that person. 

So our thing, basically what I would like to see most is that the industry actually matches advisors and clients based on some level of personal affinity, thinking style, and also passion topics that you most like to advise about. Some people advise really well on passion objects, cars, art wealth, and those people should be aligned to the right clients based on that passion zone rather than how much money they make and where they live.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I don’t know why I was thinking about sports as you were just talking through that, but I started thinking about, you know, if you’re trying to fill let’s say a soccer or football team and you just randomly place people in different positions, well that doesn’t even allow them to excel, and then that doesn’t allow the whole team to excel, versus if you place the person in the position that matches their skills and interest, that’s better for everyone.

Dave: Yes. And we’ve all seen the centify data miner version of this, which is, Oh, why don’t we hire a bunch of data scientists and take all these people’s social data and try to figure out matching so we can do a better product recommendation. Wouldn’t it be an amazing idea Right. So every bank has played with that in their lab. Fact is, that’s very uncomfortable. First of all, you’re not really supposed to do that. There aren’t many data privacy laws here in the U.S. but in other countries there are. 

And secondly, that’s again only about portfolio management and that very specific thing you’re trying to get to. It’s like walking into the bar and putting up your hand and saying, does anybody want to go home? Who does that? Right. I mean you have to be able to have a trusted relationship with people in all contexts. And therefore, you know, we’re trying to build like relationship building tools. It’s a whole category that doesn’t exist yet, but we think it’s coming. This is where we see the industry go.

Connecting with Prospects During Volatility

Kate: Awesome. So what about now? Sort of, in the midst of a crisis, if you have a client, let’s say that went through this process, eight months ago, would it be worth going through it again during a crisis? Let’s say they call and they’re feeling very emotional and they say, you know, I can’t handle it, let sell everything and go to cash. How does this tool then play a role in that scenario?

Dave: I’ll answer it in a, in an odd way. You should. You should always be talking with and re -profiling your clients. What a lot of clients do, what we’ve learned from talking with them in that lab environment, was, on Sunday mornings, they typically take a look for, am I doing the right thing with my finances? It’s like priority number 10. 

They end up either looking at the paper or more likely today they Google things and they try to find things. They end up at SmartAsset, Investopedia and they get lost, right. They get to the typical retirement calculator, they find bank advertising, the paid Google results overwhelm them and they can’t figure out how do I actually do better for myself in terms of managing our assets, my wealth, our finances. I’m actually really concerned about our parental situation. I don’t know how to protect this. I don’t have enough money to do this. How do I manage? 

The answer is get a good financial advisor. But that process of getting there, it’s a hard bridge to gap and so what they tend to do is end up the next Sunday and the next Sunday and they might send a couple of leads and then they get this person off the desk is like, you know, I’m John from Bank of America. It isn’t very comfortable. And so there’s a higher level of comfort when you have some initial value that you give them. So if you’re searching, you can say, Oh, there’s something about me. I can see myself and what my priorities are and I can pick an advisor based on that. We find that a more useful way to actually get to the right advisor.

Kate: Yeah. So if there is a person that’s out there on Sunday morning and they don’t work with an advisor, can they just go on the platform and do it themselves or do they have to find the tool through an advisor that is currently using it?

Dave: Right now we have a few clients who have their advisors actively using this on social media, their email newsletters and that stuff tends to spread. There is no easy way to just go and take the test right now because we believe in empowering the advisors. We think that without them, the industry isn’t going to progress. So we’re giving this to them to be able to propagate so that they can get value out of it with clients. 

And also pivot the product so to speak and start up language because we may need to add more topics that they can profile in the web stuff. So we need new video material and we’re very interested in what the advisers say, Hey, this worked, this worked and this didn’t work so that we can quickly adapt it.

Continued Growth if Independent Advisors

Kate: Yeah. So you guys are continuing to build things out. So what are some of the things on your upcoming list Or if we say that 2020 is the new 2013 where do you kind of see things going in the next five, seven, 10 years?

Dave: Oh, I can’t answer that. But I do suspect that financial advisory as a topic, financial planning, will continue to get better and there’ll be a stronger trend towards people moving to independence or at least the RIA model of becoming more trusted advisors and less stock picking. And for those advisors who want to get there, the way to do that is behavioral finance, understanding your clients and being able to scale up your book quickly and so you’ll need more than just a CRM. 

You need active, offensive tools to go and figure out who people are and generate leads. So if you can generate newsletters that go out to targets, that’s one thing. But you also need to make a connection back, not just the Wall Street Journal article about market volatility. You need something to talk about. And that’s, that’s why we exist is to enhance that performance of an advisor.

I would say to any of my brethren,  my friends, financial advisors, financial planners, wealth planners, I’m speaking to you guys today, please assemble your toolset to work from home for the next six months.

Kate: Absolutely. And like you said, you can share this on social media and I can totally see that being something that spreads and people easily share with colleagues they work with that are concerned, with their friends, their family, their neighbors. You know, that’s even a connection point that people can make right now while everyone is so isolated. So working as a really great lead generation tool in a time when people are having sort of extreme uncertainty, the first time they’ve had it in like a decade and realizing, okay, you know, it’s been good times over the last five, seven, 10 years. But I didn’t work with an advisor. I maybe wasn’t well positioned and you know, I don’t know what my future looks like.

Advising From home: The Foundation Tech

Dave: That’s right. And I would say to any of my brethren,  my friends, financial advisors, financial planners, wealth planners, I’m speaking to you guys today, please assemble your toolset to work from home for the next six months. And that looks like not just maybe the front end or the custody backend that you’ve got, but have your own CRM, have your own process for profiling people and have a lead generation system in place. 

So get yourself LinkedIn premium, make yourself a website, buy premium Zoom and buy Insights ADVISE, you’ll start with a free trial anyways. Because that assortment of stuff is meant to actually get you a whole set of new clients, but also talk with your existing ones at scale. So for me, it’s get used to working from home, get used to advising them remotely because it’s actually a better way for you to do a lot more business anyways and use your expertise, then it is traveling around these days.

Kate: Yeah. And, and leveraging all of those tools is a great way to find efficiencies in your business. And if this is anything like the great recession, you’re probably doing more phone calls right now and having clients reach out to you and thinking of ways to streamline that process. Whether you use Calendly and clients can just book online for a meeting so you know who needs to talk and when. Having the CRM, having Zoom, you know, saving people time, money, energy, and setting yourself up to be able to maximize your time, to provide value where it’s needed. Your time is not valuable in going back and forth, asking a client if they’re available to talk at 2:00 PM. Your time is valuable understanding what they’re really concerned about right now and having those conversations with them.

Dave: Exactly. You nailed it. You know it, you understand it. If you already know what to prepare for the meeting and you’re ready for every meeting, the effectiveness is just exponential. Right. And that’s, that’s why, again, we think that, you know, having the clients take this first, you can then say, Hey, you know, let’s talk about this and this. We haven’t ever talked about that, but actually in the context of portfolio management, maybe we should do this. That’s where advisors shine. That’s why robo-advice in my view doesn’t work. The human aspect is missing and it’s still needed.

A free trial of Insights ADVISE

Kate: Yeah. Yeah. And so you mentioned you get a free month. Is that for an unlimited number of people to take it and then what is the cost after that initial month?

Dave: So we’re free for a month and if you like it, you can sign up. Just like Spotify. It’s called a freemium model and it’s $99 a month thereafter, which we feel based on our market research and competition is a pretty reasonable fee to get the results we’re seeing, which is book shift, so to speak, increase assets under management, increase conversion rates and lead generation. So the results with the advisors we work with, they said this is really worth it.

Kate: Yeah, I agree. And that’s something, you know, as we’re talking about independence and you know, boutique practices, even solopreneurs, that’s a price point that works well there because again, it’s going to lead to so much more valuable conversations. And even as a lead gen, you know, I can see if you like working with millennials and you really don’t want to focus on retirement. Well if a lead comes in and their report is all about how much they want to focus on retirement, that’s a really great thing to know before you have that conversation. And you can refer them to a colleague that does focus on that.

Dave: Exactly. You can team up. The best advisers just like doctors, they always team up, you never know all the answers. So it allows you to do that as well. It’s a good point.

Does it work around the world?